Özgür Datvi !

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

yanlışlardan doğru sonuç çıkmaz bir hayvanat bahçesinde doğan kutup ayısının doğal ortanından çıkıp piskopat oldu sözünü kim söylüyor... o hayvanları doğal ortamından koparıp hapishanelere kapatan suçlular.
uzun zamandır düşünüyorum neden bu ayıları koruyor bu insanlar... yada koruduğunu söylüyorlar.
NESLİ TÜKENEN TÜRLERDEN OLDUĞU İÇİN Mİ?
öyleyse niye üremesin diye hadım ediyorlar...
yoksa olayda bizim bilmediğimiz bir şeymi var...
nilüfer hanım gerçekten söyledilkerinde samimiyse karacabeydeki poyraz denen yavru ayı ile datviyi bir ormana götürüp bıraksın bakalım hangisi insana bağımlıymış? hangisi ormanda karnını doyuracak hangisi insana bağımlı kalacak.
birde utanmadan ona ayı olmayı öğrettiklerini söylüyor... ölene kadar tel örgülerle çevrili bir yerde yaşayacaksa ayı olsa ne olur kedi olsa ne olur...
şimdi tekrar soruyorum bu ayılardan ne istiyorsunuz insanlar yoksa söylemediğiniz bir sırmı var...
hem dağlarda avlatacaksınız hemde bazı ayıları koruyorum diye hadım edip hapsedeceksiniz siz neyi koruyorsunuz sahi...

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Dear Cemal Gülas

Thank you very much for your answers.
Vier Pfoten knows the shelter in Karacabey and I can understand that you want to build up an alternative shelter with better condition especially with more places for the bears.
Nevertheless I don’t want to criticize the project of pro animale in this email. This should be discussed in another context. As I know from our projects it’s not easy if there is only one bear shelter in a country with limited place and not so much money and the government ask you again and again to take more bears without an alternative.
And for the case that you are very strict in your opinion I have to tell you that also Vier Pfoten castrated the male bears which we rescue if they are still not castrated before they come to our shelter.

The reason is very clear: It doesn’t make sense to get more and more bears in captivity. The policy of Vier Pfoten is in general not to keep brown bears in captivity and we would make the problem worse if we would breed bears.

Vier Pfoten differentiate between our shelters where we rescue bears which live miserable lives as dancing bears, in parcs, circuses or private husbandry. And our special project, the orphan station in Rumania. There orphan bear cubs will be raised without human influence, to be released into the wild when they have reached the appropriate age. Therefore Vier Pfoten carries out a three stage programme: Quarantine, Natural environment, Training (please find more information at our website).

But the circumstances must be very good to have success returning the bears back into the wilderness. They must be very young and the human contact before must be nearly nill. Otherwise it could be dangerous for bears and men. Further on the number of bears must be limited because it’s also not possible to training a lot of bears together.

You wrote that you want to take the baby bears of Karacabey first. But perhaps the bears are too old and too accustomed with humans to get them back into wilderness.
Your project seems like a compromise between a shelter and a project to bring back bears into the wilderness.
But our long-term experiences show that either you build up a shelter with fences around the area or you try to bring back young bears back to nature but than with really strict pre condition.
This is first of all a first short statement. If you could understand this Vier Pfoten policy and you are open for a further discussion we can contact each other for a closer cooperation.
Best regards
Carsten Hertwig


Dear Carsten Hertwig,
I read your message with thoughtfulness. I would like to answer as I understood. Yes, I am a bit strict in my opinion. But in my lifestyle I always prefer not to live instead of living with missing parts.

I think dancer bears which had been taken from wild life and lives miserable lives may castrate and raise in a shelter. But in my opinion it is not acceptable to do the same practice to orphan bear cubs which fallen because of been orphaned.

Datvi made my feelings stronger about these subjects..
Now I believe stronger that it is possible to raise and bring back bears wild life which had been taken from wild life as Datvi to natural environment which also contains lots of wild bears. I believe that you will see my belief is not far from reality when you come and see the planned area. I would not loose my belief because I would not expect so many things from the government or I would not get support from some foundation which is contact with some medicine pharmaceutical company that use animals for experiment or from the income or donation of hunting. I have some plans about that financial part. We may talk that especially.

I heard that bears had been used for pharmaceutical experiments at some shelters. I hoped they are just rumor, but most of them are reality. I have a high opinion of being in cooperation with you because of your experiences. I presume that you choose the way to castrate male bears because of your area is not available for bears reproduction.

If we get cooperation with you I will request you to work with Ms. Eva Hansen in this project.

If it is possible for you it is a great pleasure for me to guess you at the end of February or first week of March. I think some of our subjects would be clear by the time.

Best Regards;

Cemal Gülas





Dear Carsten Hertwig,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your interest.

I would like to inform you about some developments for the project before my answers to your questions.

Firstly, I have visited Administrator of Natural Parks of Turkey and some authorized persons. They told me the way I have to follow. Because of this I came back to Rize again. The planning area of the park is in borders of two districts of Rize. I explained the real coordinates of the area to authorized persons of two districts.

There is no town or pasture in the planning area. It’s about 104 square kilometres and it is pure just like the first day of the earth.
We had lots of meetings with Governor of Rize about this project. The Governor of Rize decided to assign that area for “Protection of Wildlife and Rehabilitation of Wild Animals.” And he wanted formal documents for the assignment of this area from authorized persons of two districts. Also the formal period began.
The Governor of Rize will request to assign that area for the planning purpose from the Ministry of Forest. Already I have been agreed with Ministry of Forest and Administration of Natural Parks.
The following period is going on slowly but I’m sure that we will have a good result at the end. After that point we ask some questions which are same as your questions and some of them are different to ourselves. And we really couldn’t find any answers for some questions yet. I believe that these indefinite things will be clear in time.

I will try to answer your questions and I hope we can find a way to talk those things face to face.

- In which way you would prefer help from Vier Pfoten? Should Vier Pfoten consult you how to build up the sanctuary or do you want to have constantly partner?

First of all, we would like Vier Pfoten to share its experiences and we would like to decide what to do at the following steps together.

Partnership is a legal and formal decision. Also I don’t think I can answer to this question by myself clearly. But my personal opinion is to attend our cooperation unless there have been some requests which damage our cooperation. I think that requests are also will give pain us and to you, too. Such as using that bears for medical guinea-pig, etc.

- Do you want a financial support to build up your project? Is the area your property? Do you know hot to finance the project in the going concern?

Unfortunately, the financial support from formal offices would not be enough for the project. Because of this I am looking for new ways to find financial supporters. I prefer to talk this subject with you or one of your expert clearly at Rize with help of a translator.

We don’t refuse at the result of our work, if you stabilize missing parts of us and you would like to support us. But my personal opinion is to build up the sanctuary in a system which would be enough for it. Also it could be independent.

- Question about to admit all the bears from the shelter in Karacabey.

My personal opinion is to admit young and baby bears which are not castrated, firstly. And to leave dancer bears at Karacabey. Administrator of Natural Parks would be in contact with Pro-Animale. I haven’t got information about that yet. But I’m sure that they’re following, too. Karacabey will be out of work after all dancer bears die. Because there will not be any addition of new dancer bears.

- Do you already have a plan in which way you want to build the fence around the area of 100 square kilometres? Do you want to build separated sectors within the whole area?

To build the fence around the area is very expensive and not necessary. Because there is also a wild life at the area and other bears, wolfs, roes, jackals and swine are living freely at that area. For this reason it will not be possible to make isolation by fences. We will isolate the sector buildings only. Also animals will go round freely. Animals will grow up their knowledge and experiences while they are going round freely for food.

There will be some watching stations at the area. Additionally, we will rehabilitate baby roes which were taken from wildlife at the one part of the park and we will let them go to their wildlife.

I will inform people by media for stop to keep back wild animals from the natural life. In spite of this if there would be new bears admitted to sanctuary, they will never be castrate.

It would be a great pleasure for me to guest and show the area to you or one of your expert at Rize.

Nowadays, I’m at the area and there’s 100 centimetres snow here and it’s going on to snow.

I hope we will be stay in contact and go on to make use of your ideas.

Finally, I am a photographer and I am just beginning to get information about our subject. I believe that we are cleverer than me. Because of this I hope to grove up a circle which will increase from us to tens, hundreds, more and more.
Best regards,

Cemal Gülas




Dear Cemal Gulas

Perhaps you already know that Eva Hansen contact me.

As the Head of the Competence Bear of Vier Pfoten I am responsible for all bear projects of Vier Pfoten (currently three bear sanctuaries in Austria, Bulgaria and Germany and one orphan station in Rumania).
The first question of Mrs Hansen was if it’s possible that Vier Pfoten could help Datvi by taking him to one of our sanctuaries.
After a longer dialogue within Eva Hansen explains me the situation in Turkey she agreed with me that it doesn’t make sense to rescue only the one (lovely) bear Datvi by “exported” him into one of our bear parks.
But your engagement to build up a large sanctuary sounds interesting.
And perhaps Vier Pfoten can support you if you want and it could be possible that an expert of us can visit you and your project at the end of January.
To have a clearer perception how we can cooperate it would be great if you could answer for me the following question:

In which way you would prefer help from Vier Pfoten? Should Vier Pfoten consult you how to build up the sanctuary or do you want to have constantly partner? Do you want a financial support to build up your project? Is the area your property? Do you know hot to finance the project in the going concern?
I heard that you want to admit all the bears from the shelter in Karacabey. Does pro animale knows something about your plan and would they close this shelter after your sanctuary is finished?
Do you already have a plan in which way you want to build the fence around the area of 100 square kilometres? Do you want to build separated sectors within the whole area?

If you get new young bear orphan from the wilderness would you want to castrate the male bears or do you accept to get more and more baby bears in your sanctuary?
I hope its okay for you to answer these questions shortly.
I am looking for your feed back and hope we stay in contact.
Thank you very much and best regards

Carsten Hertwig

DEGERLİGÖNÜL DOSTLARIM KONUYA İLGİ DUYANLARIN BİLGİLENMESİ İÇİN YUKARDAKİ YAZIŞMALARIMI PAYLAŞMAK İSTEDİM:

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Kısırlaştırma insan eline bir şekilde düşmüş ve doğada yaşama şansı olmayan hayvanlar için gerekli bir uygulamadır. Bu tür hayvanların insanlar tarafından oluşturulan sığınaklarda hayatlarının sonuna kadar yaşaması ve ömürlerini tamamlamaları amaçlanır. Sığınaklarda beslenen hayvanların doğacak yavrularının da doğal olarak o ortamda büyümesi doğada yaşama şansı olmayan yeni hayvanların ortaya çıkmasıyla sonuçlanacağından istenmeyen bir durumdur ve kesinlikle doğru bir yaklaşımdır. Hayvanların kısırlaştırılmasında tüplerin bağlanması (tubal ligasyon) gibi yöntemlerle bu hayvanların hem kısırlaştırılıp hem de cinsel faaliyetlerinin devamını sağlamak da mümkündür ancak bu durum hayvanlarda ileri yaşlarda sıklıkla şekillenen rahimde irin toplanması (pyometra) gibi genellikle ölümle sonuçlanacak bir problemden dolayı tercih edilmez.

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

bala bala bala :-((( söz konusu dört memeli hayvan bir ömnivor, yanı sindirim sistemi insana yakın... bu günki tıp en büyük gelişmelerini nazı soykırımına borçludur diye soykırımı doğrumudur diyelim yanı... daha derin düşünün lütfen dostlar daha derin... eğer onları doğaya kazandıramayıp hapis tutacaksak ve gen havuzundan çıkaracaksan niye ayı gibi yaşasınlarki... o zaman bırakalım insan gibi yaşayabiliyorlarsa öyle yaşasınlar...
aynı devinimler aynı sonuçla biter; aynı devinimden farklı sonuç beklemek aptalların yada art niyetlilerin tarzı olabilir ancak...

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Cemal' Alıntı:

aynı devinimler aynı sonuçla biter; aynı devinimden farklı sonuç beklemek aptalların yada art niyetlilerin tarzı olabilir ancak...

Genişletmek için tıkla ...

bu forumda tartışma tarzı böyle olmasa gerek
teknik olarak yazılan bilgiye teknik olarak vereceğiniz bir şey varsa yazarsınız
bu tür kelimeleri kullanarak olayı kişiselleştirmek hoş değil

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

sevgili yaşar temiz yüzün ve doğu sözün var. ama söylediklerimi kişisel alacak sebebin yok ve olmasınada sebep yok, çerçeve içine aldığın söze katılmadığını da düşünmüyorum ayrıca o bir tespittir kişilere yönelmiş küfür değil... lütfen empati yap ve söylediklerimin anlamını kavramaya çalış, ben beceriksizce tarif edememişsem yeniden sor ama kişisel alma gerçekten üzülürüm...,sana ne garazım olabılır, yada senin bana... insanlar arasında ekmeğimi hiç sorgusuz bölüşeceğim insanlar katılımı ve fikri olanlardır kı bu kişi bana karşı bile olsa. ben karşı sözleri kişilik kırmak için deyil geliştirmek işin vesile bilirim, bildiğimin ve inandığımın aksini söyleyenlere değer vermeseydim hayatımda değerli bulduğum fikirler edinemezdim; şimdi yazdıklarımı bir daha oku ben hiçkimseyi karşı taraf olarak görmüyorum ortak aklın ortağı olarak görüyorum tüm samimi muhabbetimle katılımı ve fikri olanları gerçekten seviyorum...

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

mesaj alındı Cemal bey

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Dear friends of Datvi and the wildlifepark in Rize,

in my home country, Austria , there life currently 30 bears in freedom.
I love them since I was a child.

Enjoy the Summery in English on page 8 !
Sorry, rest of the sides are only in german language.

http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/fileadmin/site/publikationen/M110z.pdf

We love the bears and there are no fears ...
They are a part of us.

I got this message today....seven new smal bears arrive.

***
Original:

Sieben Bären in Kärnten angekommen
Sieben Bären streifen derzeit durch Kärntens Wälder. Heuer sind sie weniger aktiv als im Vorjahr. Die Zahl der von Bären gerissenen Schafe ist stark zurückgegangen.



Ideale Lebensbedingungen
"Zur Zeit sind in Kärntens Wäldern sieben Bären unterwegs", sagte der Bärenanwalt des Landes Kärnten, Bernhard GUTLEB.

Die Bären kommen aus dem slowenischen oder kroatischen Raum. Es handelt sich zumeist um junge Tiere, die dort von den älteren Bären bedrängt werden. Einige finden den Weg nach Kärnten.

Hier in Kärnten haben sie den idealen Lebensraum, so GUTLEB. Immerhin 60 Prozent des Bundeslandes bestehen aus Wald.



"Die Bären sind in den Karawanken, in den Karnischen und in den Gailtaler Alpen eigentlich gleichmäßig verteilt, überall zwei Bären. Je nach Saison haben wir circa ein bis drei Bären, die Vagabunden sind und herumziehen", so GUTLEB.



Kaum Beschwerden gemeldet
Als Raubtier kann der Bär jedoch nur überleben, wenn er selbst auf Jagd geht. (( Wenn keine Futterzonen eingerichtet werden)) Rund 50 Schafe wurden in dem vergangenen Jahr von Bären gerissen.

((Naturschutz-Landesrat Uwe SCHEUCH: „Wenn ein Bär ein Schaf reißt oder einen Bienenstock zerstört, trägt die Versicherung der Jägerschaft diesen Schaden zu 100 Prozent.“))

Heuer wurden noch nicht so viele Fälle gemeldet. Eine Gefahr für den Menschen sieht Gutleb jedenfalls nicht:



"Wenn irgendwo ein paar Schafe gerissen werden, werden die Betroffenen entschädigt, für alle anderen Personen ändert sich gar nichts. Die können im gleichen Gebiet weiter wandern und spazieren gehen. Der Bär zeigt kein besonderes Verhalten. In Wahrheit ist die Situation so, dass man sie gar nicht bemerkt."



Jagdverbot auf Bären
Viele Bären verbringen oft ihr ganzes restliches Leben in Kärnten - hierzulande dürfen sie auch nicht gejagt werden.


***
Translation... sorry for my unperfect english

Seven bears arrived in Kärnten/Austria
Seven bears roam through Kärnten/Austria currently forests. This year, they are less active than in the previous year. The number of bears cracked sheep has fallen.


An ideal living conditions
"There are seven forests in Kärnten/Austria on the Bears," said Bear attorney of Carinthia, Bernhard GUTLEB.

The bears come from the Slovenian or Croatian areas. It is mostly young animals that are affliced from of the older bears. Some find their way to Kärnten/Austria.

Here in Kärten/Austria , they have the ideal habitat, says Bernhard GUTLEB. At least 60 percent of the federal state are forest.



"The Bears are in the Karawanken(Mountains), in the Carnic(Mountains) and in the Alps Gailtaler (Alps) actually evenly distributed across two bears. Depending on the season, we have about one to three bears, the vagabonds, and to wander about," said Gutleb.



Few complaints reported
As a predator can bear only survive if he goes on hunting. ((If there are no feed zones for teh bears ))
About 50 sheep in the last years was torn by the bears.

((Minister of Nature Conservation, Uwe SCHEUCH: "If a bear tears a sheep or destroyed a beehive, the insurance of the hunters damage to 100 percent."))

This year has not been so many cases reported. A threat to the people, so Bernhard GUTLEB , is not:



"If somewhere some torn sheep are the victims compensated for all the other people will change nothing. In the same area can continue to walk and walk. Bear shows no particular behavior. The Truth is , that nobody take notices from the bears. "



Ban on hunting bears
Many bears often spend the rest of her life in Kärnten/Austria - here, they may not be hunted.

****

Best wishes
Eva

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Yaşar hocam benim hala anlayamadığım şey, bir rehabilitasyon merkezinin görevi nedir? Bir hayvanı kısırlaştırıp ömrünü tamamlayana kadar antidepresanlarla hapis hayatı yaşatmak mı (buna rehabilitasyon değil, bakım evi denir), yoksa onu kendi doğal ortamına kazandırmak için tedaviyle "rehabilite" etmek midir? Ben insanla temas edip, yaban hayatından uzaklaşan bir hayvanın tekrar yaban hayatına geri kazandırılamayacağına inanmıyorum. Herhangi bir psikolojik sorunu olan insanları kısırlaştırıp ömrünün sonuna kadar antidepresanlarla hastanelere hapsetmek kadar anlamsız geliyor bana...

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

----- Original Message -----
From: Carsten Hertwig
To: 'cemal gülas'
Cc: 'Eva Hansen'
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: AW: possible cooperation


Dear Mr Gülas

I must say honestly I am more than negative surprised that you published our email correspondence on a website without my permission.

This can’t be the start of a trustful cooperation.

So I will not further discuss with you about your project especially as I have a lot of questions and doubts about your project.

And I want to decide by my own if and when I want to publish a statement about your project, about Karacabey or about any other project.



Nevertheless I wish you success for your project.



Thank you and best regards



Carsten Hertwig

Head of Competence Center Bear, Vier Pfoten




Dear Hertwig,

I am very surprised because of your reaction. I have never think that our email correspondence was secret and also have to be secret. I always shared all of the formal and informal developments of the project with other people and I will go on to share them also. There are lots of people who are interested in this project and support this project want to know developments. If there some things hiding from people, that makes me think it is a wrong job. I also don't want to make a cooperation like this.
I would like to think your wish about my success is a joke.
I really want to know is this tension based on different sides or about wrong translation.
But if you are really honest on your wish you may begin to be sadden. Because I always like to success the hard one.

Best regards,

Cemal Gulas



( SEDAT CAN BİR KARDEŞIMİZ BUNLARI ÇEVİRMEĞE DEVAM EDEBİLİRMİ...)

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Nadir kardeş üşenme üşüme bunlarıda çevir lütfen burda yoğunsan koruma sahasına gel yanan şöminenin önünde yap işini...

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Almanca olsa seve seve , ama ingilizcem pek o kadar iyi değil.Ama diğer arkadaşlar mutlaka yardımcı olurlar.

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

...I dont know why this contakt about Cemal and Bearmanager was broken in such short time and I will not judge that.

The contakt is not unusefull at the end, becouse bearmanger from a big organisaton now knows about diffrent problems in Karacabey and he tell me that his organisation will support (even with finance) pro animale in Karacabey. (Help from a other organisation was not new. Organisation PRO TIER has also support PA)

So I hope that the Shelter becomes a better condition. PA could buy more land or what its needfull.
For that result, it was a pleasure for me.

But the orphans was still in unacceptable situation. Every great organisation tell me the same about.
(And I can send quotes, if you want to hear more...)

Plans from Cemal together with National park and Ministery are very important for the Orphans, thats clear. And maybe some of the dancing bears are able to get in freedom also? Cemal wrote to Bearmanager (open in gezenbilir) that he gets support from some foundation....this are good news.

Thank you all, love and respect
Eva

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

Konuya uzak olmak, benim için bu kon böyle bir konu. Bir gece tv kanalarrından birinde gördüm Datvi ve Cemal Gülaş'ı. Olanlar dinledim ve ne gariptir ki şaşırmadım. Forum sayfalarının birer birer ilerlerken de şaşırdığımı söyleyeme. Özellikle destek yaklaşımlarında ki eksik kalan kısımları garip geldi. Sanırım unuttuğumuz çok önemli bir nokta var; "BU DÜNYA BİZE AİT DEĞİL, BİZ SADECE GEÇİYORUZ".

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

İnsan Yokken Dünya Düzenli ve Temizdi (Dünyanın başına Ne geldiyse İNSAN yüzünden geldi)

Ynt: Özgür Datvi !

değerli gönül dostlarım,
on dört gün şehirlere tahammül ettikten sonra gerçekten yüreğinde her canlıya bir oda ayıracak insanlar için sevindirici sonuçlarla inime dönüyorum. yoğunluğumun inimde daha da fazla olacağından eminim. buna rağmen hepinize kapımın sonuna kadar açık olduğunu bilmenizi isterim... kentte geçen günlerde aldığım övgüler bana sorumluluklarımı defalarca hatırlattı umarım bize gönül veren dostlarımızı utandırmayız. bu sayfayı takip eden sekiz bine yakın gönül dostumuzun da bu övgüde payı olduğunu biliyorum ve hepsine ayrı ayrı teşekkür ediyorum... umarım mart sonu gibi birkaç güzel haberi sizinle bu sayfa ve coğrafi geziler aracılığı ile paylaşacağım.